The journalist Jesús Bastante, Co-founder and current editor-in-chief of Religión Digital, the world’s leading socio-religious information portal in Spanish, had the opportunity to conduct an in-depth interview with Father Manuel Corral, Secretary of Institutional Relations of the Archbishopric of Mexico.
In this extensive talk lasting more than 25 minutes, Father Corral reviews with Bastante the current situation of the Catholic Church in Mexico, the challenges it faces, and especially the reforms being promoted by Cardinal Carlos Aguiar at the head of the archdiocese.
It is a conversation that covers topics of great interest such as the relationship between the Church and López Obrador’s government, the secularisation of Mexican society, the impact of ultra-Catholic conservative groups, the pandemic and vaccines, and López Obrador’s request for Spain and the Church to apologise for the conquest.
But above all, it is an interview that allows us to take a look at the process of change that the Catholic Church in Mexico is undergoing, with the help of an archbishop close to Pope Francis, Carlos Aguiar. A Church that wants to be closer to the people, more participatory and with a more educated laity.
Below is the full transcript of this interesting and instructive conversation.
Interview on 12.09.2021
Jesús Bastante: Manuel Corral is a Spanish Verbite religious, but with a Mexican heart, who has spent half a century abroad working for a Church on the move. Now, as Secretary of Institutional Relations of the Archbishopric of Mexico.
“In Mexico they call me gachupín because I have a Spanish accent, and in Spain they say I have a Mexican accent”, he explains with a laugh. Responsible for relations between the Archbishopric and the López Obrador government, we review with Manuel the current situation of the Church in the country, secularisation, the impact of ultra-Catholic groups and the anti-vaccine movements.
Jesús Bastante: You were born in a village in Zamora.
Father Manuel Corral: In a small town in Zamora, on the border with Portugal: Fornillos. It is in the Duero river valley and they make very good cheeses and very good wines there. My mother, at 92 years old, still lives there and I have just visited her. I’ve been here for three weeks and I’m ready to go back to Mexico.
Jesús Bastante: You have a Mexican accent.
Father Manuel Corral: In Mexico they call me gachupín because I have a Spanish accent, and in Spain they say I have a Mexican accent (laughs).
Jesús Bastante: Manuel is Mexico’s Secretary for Institutional Relations ‘ad extra’. What does such a position entail in such a large archdiocese?
Father Manuel Corral: Archbishop Carlos Aguiar, since he was in the Episcopal Conference of Mexico as secretary general, restructured the secretariat and considered that two secretaries were necessary, hence the ‘extra’; one to attend to the day-to-day affairs of the diocese, (here there is also Father García for internal affairs), and me with the help of Father Quintero, known to this magazine, a Mercedarian, for institutional relations.
What does this involve? In institutional relations there must always be dialogue. And that dialogue has to be sincere because if we don’t touch on issues that affect people, there is a vacuum. So you need someone to deal with the day-to-day problems of one thing and another.
Jesús Bastante: What would this relationship with López Obrador be like? With the government?
Father Manuel Corral: At first it was a dialogue… of mistrust, I was going to say.
Jesús Bastante: Of mistrust?
Father Manuel Corral: Also. What happens is that López Obrador, in his entire trajectory (he does not consider himself to belong to one religion or another), says that he belongs to a universal religion. Certain bishops did not get it right, saying that he was a Protestant, and the relationship was not easy. But to the extent that there has been a dialogue with him, with his operators and with the secretaries of state, it has facilitated a rapprochement and, above all, that mutual ignorance and mistrust has been diluted. We still do not have a one hundred percent relationship, but it is possible to work with him. In fact, we are working with him on issues that concern us all; the issue of life, for example, about which he is very concerned about what is happening.
Jesús Bastante: How are church-state relations in Mexico? Because here, for example, we have agreements that are 40 years old and that regulate everything: assistance in the Armed Forces, in hospitals, schools, legal matters? A bit of everything.
Father Manuel Corral: As you know, in Mexico we have only been in existence for 30 years since the establishment of these relations between the State of Mexico and the Vatican State by which the Church is recognised as a religious association. It is only twenty-nine years and it has not been easy. In Mexico we do not have one hundred percent religious freedom because the Law of Religious Associations is still focused on administration, so to speak. To keep control of who the minister of worship is, of a permit for this, and sometimes there is also a certain simulation, because it is assumed that for a church to be able to hold a procession, it has to ask permission from the authorities. In public schools, for example, religion cannot be taught, and neither can it be taught in private schools. But it is simulated under other names; Religious Humanism, etc. So there is recognition, yes, but no agreements.
Jesús Bastante: There is no support.
Father Manuel Corral: There is no support. But we are trying to find a way forward.
Jesús Bastante: You are commemorating the Bicentenary of Independence in many countries. In this context, López Obrador practically demanded that the Church and the Crown of Spain ask for forgiveness. How was this received by the Mexican Church?
Father Manuel Corral: The Church, officially, never pronounced itself with the words that the President was asking for. And when journalists asked, he said: “the Church has already asked for forgiveness through Pope Francis”. John Paul II also asked for it and I don’t remember if Benedict also asked for it.
Jesús Bastante: What these commemorations do serve to do is to reflect on the road that has been travelled. History cannot be rewritten; we all make the mistake, all cultures, of trying to rewrite it…. But you can only try to understand or find points of reflection.
Father Manuel Corral: The sense was that there were other more important issues to focus on than a past in which you can no longer intervene, and asking for forgiveness, which had already been asked for, was not going to solve the current serious problems we have there. There was no response to the president’s words, neither in the episcopate nor at the public level, from the people in the street.
Jesús Bastante: It was more of a gesture to the international gallery. Cardinal Aguiar was one of the six bishops and cardinals who, together with Pope Francis, recorded a video within the movement to call for universal vaccination, encouraging the population to join together in the fight against the accursed coronavirus. This pandemic has brought us to a standstill at all levels. I understand that Cardinal Aguiar is convinced of the need for all of us to be vaccinated and to take care of ourselves.
Father Manuel Corral: From the very first moment, when the government imposed the measure to close the churches, he was in favour of complying with it and getting vaccinated. He was also one of the first to be vaccinated and announced it. And he continues to insist on the need, whenever he has the opportunity. When he has spoken in public, he has pointed out to the population that it is the only way to save us. Because there is a very strong anti-vaccine movement, with all the myths about it, and he has explained, actively and passively, that there is nothing wrong with vaccination. He is convinced of this because it is a very important issue.
Jesús Bastante: And there are also anti-vaccine positions among the clergy. There are countries where the bishops have even had to come out and tell the clergy that they cannot defend negationist positions, that we are risking the lives of many, and above all the lives of the poorest. Unfortunately, although these diseases affect us all, those of us who live in countries with a stable health system go through them in a different way, and sometimes we don’t realise it.
Father Manuel Corral: I believe that the poor have not had the opportunity to have the formation that the rest of us have had. In many environments, the figure of the priest is very recognised and what he says is highly respected. That is why this is where the call has been made and the Cardinal, in all the meetings we have had, both virtual and physical, insists a lot on this issue because, precisely, people who are not vaccinated expose themselves and others. So, we have to avoid these myths, and even more so among leadership figures, both religious and political. Remember that in the early days our President didn’t pay much attention to the issue of vaccines, it made an impact and that’s why people didn’t get vaccinated. Until it was his turn. Today, 63% of people in Mexico are vaccinated.
Jesús Bastante: This is a good figure, considering other countries in Latin America, Africa and Asia where vaccination is very low. It is true that, as the Pope says, either we all get vaccinated or we are not going to get out of this situation.
Father Manuel Corral: We must insist. What strikes me about the antivaccinationists is that they don’t give arguments. They are unsubstantiated narratives.
Jesús Bastante: Moving on, two questions in one: How would you define the Church in Mexico and what project do you think Cardinal Aguiar can lead for the Mexican Church?
Father Manuel Corral: The Church in Mexico is going through a period of change in the face of a religious crisis that is affecting the moral level. Because it is not only religious, but institutional. All institutions are in crisis. As Rahner’s famous phrase says: ‘if your spirituality does not give you the strength to go on, Christianity will not be’. I think that, in general, the bishops are very aware but very afraid to open up to what, for example, the Pope is saying. The Church going out, all this.
Jesús Bastante: Like in the Spanish Church, where they are moving forward very cautiously because, perhaps, there is a fear of what will happen next.
Father Manuel Corral: That is the question: what is going to happen next. Whether this Pope has leadership or the Pope who is going to come closes. What is going to happen. That, at a general level. But at the local level, Carlos Aguiar has a very important project, the famous Pastoral Units. What Aguiar has done in this area of the Pastoral Units, which are already beginning to function, is to unite several parishes; they are still parishes but the priests live together in community and there is a certain coordination. They live in a house where there is a coordinator and the related parishes share procedures indistinctly.
Jesús Bastante: In a certain way it is a help to the priest himself, because one of the scourges of clericalism that Francis denounces so much comes precisely from this solitude that can make you feel unique, powerful. And it is not the same for religious who are used to living in community and sharing.
Father Manuel Corral: For clergy who are formed in other times it is very difficult and Carlos Aguiar knows that it cannot be forced. What he did, then, was to discuss with the young people and those who wanted to create these pastoral units. And the first to be created is the Episcopal Unit. The auxiliary bishops, of whom there are five, live in a house.
Jesús Bastante: Leading by example.
Father Manuel Corral: Exactly. And they themselves say that it is very good because they have the opportunity to share breakfasts and meals, they meet and they also have the opportunity to pray. That is one of the things. And another is that the formation of the seminarians has taken them out of the parishes, with four or five seminarians living in a parish with a formator and the parish priest, and they have to go to class at the seminary. And it forces them to have a year of confrontation with the experience of their own formative itinerary; they have to go out to work in companies. Search. What he wants is that there be a knowledge of reality, a solid formation of the new priests. That they integrate and experience the problems with the people.
Jesús Bastante: A direct contact with reality.
Father Manuel Corral: And on the other hand, what we are going to do is to prepare the pastoral visits to the parishes so that all those who come to the parish can participate with a consensus methodology. It has obliged us all, as we had already done in the Episcopal Conference, with some tools so that everyone can give their opinion and participate. That is the structure. And another of the things he has done is to focus the administration, improving resource management.
Jesús Bastante: It is a bit like the model of the reform of the Curia that is being carried out in Rome. I think that in this and other matters, Aguiar and Francisco are very much in touch.
Father Manuel Corral: I get the impression that they speak frequently. So he is centralising the administration so that the parishes work together. And as there is no government subsidy to the Church there, he has created the portal miofrenda.com so that when people ask for a service, such as a wedding, there is no charge, but you simply make a donation there. And he also did another very good thing: the creation of the three dioceses around the city, which were ten million, leaving the archdiocese with five and a half million and the other dioceses, which are very characteristic of each area, with their own bishop to be better served. This has also helped. And within the archdiocese itself, the zones have been restructured. There are seven zones and at the head of each one there is a vicar who is a priest. Implementing this structure is easier and, as he says: “I am leaving the ground for whoever comes after me”.
Jesús Bastante: Another parallel with Francis, I’m sure that carrying out all these changes is not easy, as is happening to Bergoglio, because this type of action is causing problems and causing enemies or personalities to emerge who are not at all in agreement.
Father Manuel Corral: Like everything else. I believe that the serious problem comes when different ideas are not confronted. And like everywhere else, in the Church itself. We see it with Pope Francis, who has always sought dialogue with the people because he is not afraid of confrontation. Carlos Aguiar has also sought dialogue with, let’s call it, if you like, the opponents who do not agree with him because they have taken a very different path. The first, the priests who have been in a parish for thirty years. There are opponents, yes, both secular priests and religious. Because the religious have their fiefdoms and when it comes to contributing, they think that they are being taken away from them. We forget that we are mere administrators. And, within these opponents, there are also the lay groups. There are groups that oppose someone who comes along and takes away their status and certain privileges that they used to have.
Jesús Bastante: It’s happening in Mexico, it’s also happening in Madrid and in Rome, obviously. But one can criticise and be against it; it is the freedom of the children of God. Cases in which the question is to go a step further and to elaborate strategies, in many cases through, almost, secret societies or silent networks to crush.
Father Manuel Corral: These secret societies that you mention, which do exist and which use these groups to destroy projects that are moving forward, have not understood that today young people, families and couples are moving away from the Church. We have a very high drop in marriages in Mexico, not only because of the pandemic. They have not understood that we are in a change of era and, as José María Castillo says, we have to move away from the religion of the temple to the religion of the brotherhood of Jesus. Without leaving one thing and without leaving the other. But for these groups, with whom I completely disagree, to use their strength and their strategies to defame or discredit a person, for example the case of Carlos Aguiar, without arguments or facts. Simply talking for the sake of talking… It makes no sense. I have met people to whom I have said: give me proof that what you say is true. And they don’t know. I understand that these behaviours arise from the fear of losing status; these privileges and influences that they had.
Jesús Bastante: As we were talking about before, because of the issue of vaccines, we are in a society of attacking people in order to maintain privileges or to stay in the limelight. It is sad. It is even sadder that it happens among those of us who call ourselves Christians and who try to carry forward the gospel of Jesus.
Finally, Manuel, what Church do you dream of?
Father Manuel Corral: I dream of a Church, first of all, of formed and informed lay people. Because we all have information, but sometimes we don’t have formation. When I say formed, I mean to be aware of a commitment; that we are in this life in passing and, as I often say to people: “the day God calls you, he will ask you if you were happy or not happy. If your life had meaning or not”. I believe that we have to promote a Church that is not clerical and that the priest is the instrument to facilitate the paths, the dialogues. For this reason, the priest has to be a trained and informed man. But trained in the new realities of the world. I dream of a Church that one day will be lay and that will go beyond the rituals to become a more human Church. Closer to the problems experienced by families, young people, workers… A Church incarnated in the social world in which we live. And for this we need an organisation that is not the objective, but an instrument ‘for’. And of trained lay people; not that they have to be theologians, but that they have to be involved in the fields. Hence this congress that took place here and what José Antonio Rosa said: “we don’t want Catholic politicians, but Catholics in politics and in society”. That is the question. That is what I see as a formed lay Church.
Jesús Bastante: Matthew 25: the Talents. I think it is also fundamental to understand Francis and to understand what, in my opinion, should be the role of the followers of Jesus in society.
Father Manuel Corral: That’s right.
Jesús Bastante: Manuel, it has been a pleasure talking to you, we will continue talking and working.
Father Manuel Corral: Nice to meet you.
